Crushing It In Construction

#89 Why Should Customers Choose You? How To Revamp Your Marketing With John Carolan

• Jordan Skinner

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Welcome back to the Crushing It In Construction Podcast.

We're keeping the momentum by welcoming John Carolan into the hotseat, Founder and Director of SKOPE Constructions in New South Wales.

John is here to share the rise of SKOPE, his own journey from on-site labourer to managing executive, and most importantly, the impact that a new marketing strategy has had on their business.

With the help of Ken Robinson of Persuasive Marketing, they chose to focus on customer success, creating new content and strategies that get them into discussions for as many potential jobs as possible.

It's simple, you've got to put yourself out there and keep your ear to the ground.

Let's dive in.

CONTACT DETAILS

John Carolan
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/john-carolan-b9241025
Website: https://skopeconstructions.com.au/

Jordan Skinner
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-skinner-685439178/
Website: https://moonshotmedia.com.au/

Want to book a FREE 30-minute consultation call? Book a time to speak here: https://calendly.com/book-a-chat-with-jordan/chat-with-jordan

Jordan:

John thanks for coming on the podcast. Mate, we've had a bit of a hiatus and you're the first one back that we've had in a few months cause scheduling has been a nightmare and even you and I have rescheduled this a couple of times, let's kick things off how we always do. if you can just explain to everybody who you are and what it is you do in your own words, we'll start there.

John Carolan:

Thanks Jordan. Thanks for having me on. yeah, look, I'm the founder and director of, scope constructions. we're a small medium building company in Sydney. and we've been around for about 19 years. We're in our 19th year now. I'm actually from a pretty big family of seven kids. I'm number five. and the father of four beautiful girls. And for nearly 25 years to, my wife who I met when I was 18. uh, I've basically been a builder for about 30 years. entered the industry in the early 90s. and really started in the residential renovation and new build, arena. more of the high end resi in New South Wales and mainly Sydney back in that, stage.

Jordan:

let's walk it back a little bit. A family of seven kids that must've been a little bit chaotic at times. Tell us a little bit about the childhood, the upbringing. Like, do you have other siblings that have ended up in construction as well or?

John Carolan:

actually, um, started in the construction industry with my two brothers. well, initially my oldest brother. he was already, running a business and he'd already done construction management or similar type of course at uni. I've joined him and, sort of went from there and started my career laboring on building sites, really. I did that for a couple of years while I was at uni. yeah, growing up in a family of, seven, I, you know, I had initially had four older siblings. then, when my, my mother had remarried and I had another younger brothers. So yeah, it was great. I've really fond memories of, having a big family and, having a big variety of personalities, in the family.

Jordan:

Yeah, it's funny. It's like times are changing now, aren't they? You know, like my mother was one of four or five, I think, I was one of three and, myself and my wife, we've stopped at two. We're like, nah, that's enough. Like, it's funny how, things are changing now. the big families don't seem to be as common anymore.

John Carolan:

Yeah. Look, I think everyone starts a little bit later these days, than, our parents and grandparents did. so, it's more common for people to have a couple of kids. I think people think I'm gonna be crazy sometimes when I say I have four.

Jordan:

Hmm.

John Carolan:

but yeah, in Hansa, you'd never have it any other way, I guess.

Jordan:

so when you were growing up, I mean, was construction what you wanted to do, or did you have aspirations to do something else?

John Carolan:

Construction wasn't really something that was on the radar for me. I've always been a real creative type. I've actually heard, previous podcasts are yours and I, one of them. Mentioned that you have a lot of musicians on the, on the podcast, but I mean, I've always been a musician of, sorts. I, you know, I played saxophone for sort of 15 years and, now I play a lot of guitar and I loved music. I loved sport growing up, um, lots of different things. I, I lived in yas, for the first little part of my life on, on a farm. and. I've always had a love of nature and, the country because of that. and then ended up in Canberra Canberra's, you know, it was a lot different place back in the eighties, but, I did a variety of things and they were always sort of creative pursuits, in many ways and sport. And I think a problem that a lot of kids have is if they're doing too much, they may not become a master or anything. And I think growing up, I would have loved to have been a golfer. I would have loved to have been a musician. love to have some sort of sporting pursuit. Construction was never really fully on the radar. My father was a dentist actually you know, he wasn't sort of encouraging him to go in that direction either. but I think I was attracted to construction because of the creative side of it. I think it's a tangible sort of, thing that, you know, you build things and you see them, go up and, it's the creative side of it, that probably has really attracted me.

Jordan:

Yeah. in my last, interview that I had was with a guy called Yon Baldwin from, the U S and he was a traveling musician for years. And he made a pretty strong argument around, cause I think I asked him the question like, how do you transition from being a musician, you're probably waking up at lunchtime and, drinking a fair bit and all those sorts of things that you picture a musician being to, plans and tenders and all the rest of it. And he made a good argument saying that the construction industry actually is very creative, not as rigid as I probably made it out to be.

John Carolan:

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean, I think, there's certain types of music and certain things you can do with the music, which is, can be very disciplined about it if you want. And it's, it's almost like a different language. it language music because if you learn to rate music or listen to music, but you know, you need to be pretty committed. If you want to be good at any musician or anything, you've got to be pretty disciplined about it and spend a lot of time on it. and I think if there's a creative aspect to it, you're more likely to spend a lot more time on it.

Jordan:

So did you ever chase after, I suppose, some of these aspirations to be a musician or whatever?

John Carolan:

yeah, look, I think I played in various bands and at school and just after, I think at some point when you get a bit older, you, you realize whether you've got the talent or the, ambition to pursue that as a career. and I think what you start to realize is that it's probably some of these things are going to end up being. something that you'll do your whole life, but not necessarily for a way of making a living. so I think at first you're like, well, I'm really disappointed. I'm not to do this for my life. But I think you realize that you can't. You're just not going to be doing it for a living.

Jordan:

let's go back to, you first got into construction, you started with your brother. us through, what was the process from, laboring to starting Scope?

John Carolan:

that was an early, early business that I was with my brothers for eventually my second eldest brother joined as well. but yeah, I was laboring while I was at uni and slowly got more involved in the office side of things and the tendering and the course that I did at uni was, construction economics and that, that's a a quantity surveying course. So I was very much in tune with, trained in the estimating and, takeoffs side of the, and tendering of the, of the projects. And I slowly spent less time on site and more time in the office and, and was very much involved in running the, tendering side of the business. I look, I always gravitated towards running projects. That was my real preference. But that company, my brothers and I, were together for about 13 years and dissolved that company in, 2006. And then that's when I then decided to continue on, in scope under my own business. and, my other brother eventually, rejoined me, about seven years ago. and I think what's interesting there, Just going back to that original business, all had our own qualifications and, and talents, I guess. And, some people say family businesses are very difficult. we did really well and we all had our own sort of gigs. was sort of primarily builder and enjoyed the development side of things. And I was trained in the estimating and, and, um. tendering side of things, but enjoyed running projects. And my other brother was a chartered accountant and he decided to leave corporate world, terms of accounting and, and join the business. And, as we all know, having a financial, person in a construction business or any business really is, is really important. So we had a lot of bases covered between the three of us in those years. But then really, I started scope, I kind of went back to square one in terms of hats I was wearing. and, it felt like that, movie, the castle, I don't know if you've seen it, but DiNerdo dictates his own message and then turns around and starts typing it. and you feel like that in a new business, when you buy yourself, you feel like you're having to wear every hat. And you're not necessarily very good at everything. No, it is. and so growing a business, I guess, the challenge is finding the people that do the things that you don't do very well.

Jordan:

So were there any lessons that you took away from that first business that I suppose accelerated what you did at scope or helped in any way, or was there anything that you thought, what you did in that first business, you thought I'm never doing that again, or I'm not doing it that way.

John Carolan:

Yeah, there was certainly a huge learning curve for that sort of 12, 13 years in terms of, learning about the different sectors we're working with in construction and what I prefer to do. there's so many different sectors obviously in construction, you know, residential, multi residential, commercial, industrial medical, and I think that the biggest lesson was probably what to focus on, what, what we, what I was better at, and what sort of projects I was probably, better attuned to and more willing to deliver. guess, yeah, it's obviously, you learn a lot of financial, things that not necessarily trained, to do. you know, uni course was all about. the cost of construction and the life cycle costing of construction and and managing projects and programming. But there wasn't really a focus on financial aspects of running a business at all. so I think that's probably the biggest thing I learned is, is managing cashflow.

Jordan:

and this might be naivety on my part as well, but I think the financial aspect in construction is probably a lot harder than, say another business where it's like e commerce where you sell a product and you get the money in your bank that day, like we were talking about before we hit record, you know, 30, payment, cycles, and you've got, you know, retentions and, bonds for somebody new that is kind of figuring that out for the first time, it'd be like drinking from a fire hose.

John Carolan:

Absolutely. will, will have on a, decent sized project, maybe a hundred cost centers and. when I talk about cost centers for people that might not be familiar with them in construction, we, break our projects up into budgets and the cost centers are where we charge our costs to. and in construction, some of them are very straight up and down. You've got a budget of this much for electrical and what you're going to let that contract for. when it comes to preliminaries, which what we, we call preliminaries in construction, things that are across the range of the project, like your supervision and your, your cleaning and your bins and your scaffolding and things like that. and you've got a whole lot of different things running at different speeds. And I think a lot of builders, including myself in the past is you've had situations where producers go for too long and they eat their own head off because, you've got the supervisor there for too long. You've got the scaffold up for too long because of weather. And, having to really monitor cash, position, not just as the project as a whole, but you might have 100 cost centers that you need to review regularly and then forecast to see if you're going to go over budget. Um, and say, okay, well, if we've got, three months left on this project, we've only got two months left of budget for this supervisor. what are we going to do about it? And I think it's about, learning that and making sure that you look ahead and not, not one day just realize you've run out of money on that project. And then you're trying to get it finished as quickly as possible. which sort of sacrifices the quality and then ultimately relationship with your client.

Jordan:

yeah, I couldn't agree more. and so, at the stage where you've started scope, paint a bit of a picture for us around what are, I suppose, the three main stages that you've been through since starting to get where, to where you are now.

John Carolan:

the first thing is, is setting the reputation, as a reliable and trustworthy builder. and that takes some time because people using you for the first time, and giving you a go, really know whether they've made the right decision or not. you have to set a reputation and, and, a level of trust with your clients so that they either become repeat clients or they're going to tell someone else that you're a trustworthy and, and capable builder. I think that's probably the first stage that we went through. We were just trying to get a base to basically put scope. the map as someone that you could go to,

Jordan:

did you have a particular strategy or was it just win and deliver as best you could?

John Carolan:

Well, we do things differently these days, but I think at the time it was really just trying to speak to as many people as we could, who either developers or project managers or architects. I think in the residential sector, architects tend to be, the people who are most likely to be the first point of contact on a project. perhaps the client will be directly, when you get into the commercial environment, it tends to be client side project managers, who are the ones that you need to be in contact with, because in the commercial sector, architects generally become more of a consultant, than a superintendent. so when we're doing more resi work was about trying to make contact with a lot of architects and telling them that we could build the buildings that they were designing. as time went on, we, tried to either have client side project managers be in contact with them a lot more regularly. And in some cases, some of our clients have internal, project managers that run their, the project side of things, for instance, our aged care clients, some of them have their own internal project managers that we, stay in touch with and, or always, discussing new projects with them.

Jordan:

So that was step one. What about step two? Where, where, where was the next rung on the ladder?

John Carolan:

Well, I suppose I did sort of touch on it, but the next stage was really just building on the long term relationships and the repeat clients and, industry professionals. once you've built a base where you can say you're capable, I think you've got to then build relationship further and. just with maybe project managers, you start to build relationships with other consultants as well. Structural engineers, you know, civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic engineers that you start to see a lot more often on the more projects you do. and I think that expands your, contact with in the industry by, building relationships with consultants as well. who are going to be doing repeat clients work for their clients as well.

Jordan:

Yeah. And even if they're not going to be direct clients, like what you've essentially described there is what I like to call increasing your luck surface area. You know what I mean? Like they're all people that influences for lack of a better term the, in the purchasing cycle, you know? So, so yeah, it's a good point.

John Carolan:

Yeah. one of the most important things is just that word of mouth. And, builders really rely on site signage. basic things like that and, our social media, or our, you know, our website and it's not very direct. and not building trust either. Cause just saying that we're good or whatever, but there's no real evidence of

Jordan:

which was on your website. You guys are doing something that, I recommend all of our clients do. But after, doing this podcast for as long as they have and looking at hundreds and hundreds of websites, most websites in this industry are all focused on they talk about themselves, but you've completely flipped that the other way around. And you talk about the value that. your clients get as a result of dealing with you, which is fantastic. what made you take this new approach?

John Carolan:

Well, I think the initial catalyst was simply we have a commercial builder who is actually retired now. Two doors down from us in our building here, he said, look, you really should talk to this guy about, some marketing he did for me and a different approach, because he won some projects for me. and he, basically created a different approach on our website. then he also me material that I could use to give to clients or in a board meeting do presentations because a lot of us aren't naturally in a smaller business, you don't have the business development manager. So he said, you really should talk to this guy and you'll have some pre prepared things that you can show, show people like what you just touched on. It was really about saying, this is how good we are. These are all our nice photos. This is what we've been doing and talking about us all the time. It was more about talking about what problems we could solve for the client and what the benefit was for them to use us. and I think it was, I think it was Richard Branson that said, you know, at the end of the day, business is a problem solving entity. and I think, You need to take the approach that you are going get the client's problem and you're gonna solve it.

Jordan:

and as we spoke about, in our last conversation a few months ago, I think I put up a, post that was talking about how project, completion posts are, boring, because they're not making use of things that you just mentioned, you know, like clients want contractors or. people to work for them that are safe, reliable, smart, and are going to do things properly. So, leaning into all that sort of stuff and telling clients, or educating them on how you work and what you do is really important. And very, very, very few people in the construction industry are doing that. give the guy a shout out that, that you've been working on with this. It's a, it's unfair to talk about him. It's not me by the way, but, you know, it's unfair to talk about him, him, him. So tell us, tell us who it is.

John Carolan:

Yeah, Ken Robinson, is his name and he's from persuasive marketing. when I first spoke to Ken, you know, like a lot of, people in our industry, we're a bit conservative and really want to go outside the square in terms of what everyone's doing. The approach they have, feel a little bit uncomfortable that some of the approaches in, in the sense that they were different to what everyone does, I guess, and it's therefore, you think, well, is this going to work or is it, is it, is it going to be damaging to us? Is it going to be just a waste of time? So, So, took the plunge and, trusted his experience, you know, in a number of, he doesn't just do construction. He does a number of other things in real estate and different industries. and look, I just, took the leap of faith and, in hindsight, it's been a really good thing to do.

Jordan:

So I think you touched on an important, an important point there is, A lot of people in construction are conservative. they feel like marketing is blowing their own bags. I understand why it can be seen that way. And I also think that the marketing or, branding doesn't really work, but there's a couple of key distinctions in my head. You know, you've got B2C, which is business to consumer and B2B. So those are the two distinctions between, how you market to those two groups of people. But then you've got construction, which is another layer in the B2B camp that is about, the tendering process that we have to deal with it to, like you've pointed out before, it's all about relationships. So, you know, I don't really need marketing to generate demand for my services, which is another hurdle that I think a lot of people struggle to get over in this, in this industry. So, so tell us what was going on, the business at that point in time that made you try this new approach? Was this, was there a catalyst for it? was specifically going on that made you take that leap of faith?

John Carolan:

Yeah, look, I mean, one of the worst sinking feelings in in our game is when you realize that you've just finished a really busy period. and you finish your projects and then there's nothing there start project. And, we don't have customers walking in off the street, obviously. So take a number of months to get off the ground. we had a situation where things did drop away and we still had our, you know, Decent client base, but it was just at the time they were all working on new projects in the pipeline And so I just thought we can't let that happen again. because need to have a constant flow of work so it was really just trying to be more proactive and, building a client base that was, means that we've got potential projects starting in a year's time, two years time, because as I said, some of these projects take a long time to get off the ground. Um,

Jordan:

Yeah, yeah. And so, as I mentioned, I think in the pre interview, A lot of people generally, whether you're in construction or not, have pretty unrealistic when it comes to marketing, mostly because I think what we see online is all about, build this funnel and get leads and conversions. They use all this weird terminology that. In construction, in my opinion, we don't need, you know, we don't need more leads as such. We, we need a brand, we need a reputation. We need to do all those sorts of things that you spoke about earlier, have conversations. so with the work that you've done, altering your website to have more, Client focused, copywriting, video testimonials, all that sort of stuff. How are you tracking success? How are you gonna know whether it's working or been a good investment or not?

John Carolan:

Yeah, look, I think that, that's a really good question. It, it's, it's such a hard thing to track and, and it's difficult because the inputs and outputs aren't clear cut. like a manufacturing business, you know, the input you have and then the output and then the sales. It's a very hard thing to track. but I think you get feedback. You try to get honest feedback from the people who you have worked for. and also the people that you're asking to do the interview. I usually say, look, have a look at what other people have done for us, and, tell me whether you think that that's something effective, and whether, if you're prepared to do it for us as well. Do you think that message will get through, to potential new clients? you know, are you likely to look at these videos and say, well, I'm willing to give these guys crack at our next project or, do you think it's just really the right approach? I think it's, gauging feedback is probably the best way to work out if it's working or not.

Jordan:

Yeah, and the way we sort of do it with, the people that we work with is, because of what you said. You, you know, it's. It's hard to measure and that's just not in construction. there's a famous saying in the marketing world, which is, you know, 50 percent of my dollar doesn't work. I just don't know which 50%. so nobody's 100 percent clear on any of this. And I think, being in construction and myself coming from civil construction. I think most of us in this industry like tangible things that we can touch and see and knock on, you know, so marketing is a bit of this weird thing where you, you never really know, but. what we do with our clients is we have leading and lagging indicators. So the biggest goal for marketing is to generate more business for argument's sake, or it might be to attract new employees. So that's the end goal, but you don't know until you get there. So what are those mini steps that you can look to along the way as guide posts? To know that you're at least heading in the right direction, you know, so like you just said, are people mentioning a client saying, you know, yeah, that video, I've seen your video on your website. I thought I'd give you a call, like, and just little things like that, you know, and they can be a little bit more scientific than that, but those are the kinds of things that I think you need to look for along the way.

John Carolan:

Yeah, I agree. I agree. You need to look for the obvious little blips or spikes, in interest in your company. you can look at data on things like, LinkedIn, where you look at interest that you've received when you release a video. that's quite tangible. You can look at that. It's quite objective. You can look at that and say, we released that video and we had a good spike of interest in that. I guess after that, it's a question of you know, how much impact that had. some people sometimes just bank your name and they say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep their name on file for when I've got a project. And, and sometimes that can happen a year down the track.

Jordan:

and that's a good point because, you know, a lot of people that you speak to say, well, I can't put impressions in the bank, which is fair, but at the same time, you look at our industry, nobody's making a new, high rise every three weeks, nobody's doing a new subdivision every two weeks. So a lot of marketing is about timing. You need to be in front of the people that you need to be in front of when those projects come about, you know, you can't force them into doing a new subdivision or making a building. You've got to be constantly in front of those people. So, gauging impressions is important, but it's like frequency, all those sorts of things. Cause you've got to be in front of those people at the right time.

John Carolan:

Yeah, that's right. And that's 100 percent right what you're saying. And Ken, has said that to me in the past. He said, look, it might seem a bit sort of old approach and, a thing of the past, but he said, really, it's this, you can still have a lot of effectiveness just by having a paper flyer. in an envelope that's well marked and getting that, in front of the per, the right person. cause often what will happen in an organization with a lot of layers, that letter or email won't make it to the right person, the decision maker. he said, you know, it might sound a bit old hat to you, but you can be really effective to have a written flyer about your company a newsletter and get it to that person and make sure it gets work out a way of getting it to that person. That's the decision maker. because quite often, yeah, there'll be people, in the organization. down a few runs that will just get it and just chuck it out or not mention it. So I think the key is getting in front of someone and at the right time, keeping your ear to the ground.

Jordan:

Yeah, well this has been really good, I, I, you know, every time we've had a conversation I've really enjoyed it and we end up going in a multitude of different directions. But, is there anything I haven't asked you that you think the audience might benefit from? Any pearls of wisdom or, anything like that?

John Carolan:

look, I think my observation, I think it's good to be trying, trying to be positive. We've been through a lot in the industry in the recent years. and, I think there's a lot of positive things happening in the industry now in use of the files. We've had the building commission come through and it's, it's been quite disruptive, but ultimately it's going to be a lot better in the long run. Building trust in the industry again, we had a lot of, Problems with buildings defects and things, up here. And I think that's one thing, I think that's turning around. I guess the only reason I say it is, I think there's a lot to look forward to.

Jordan:

I think like you and I were talking about in the, you know, before we push record is I think I've seen a stat somewhere that it was like 3000 construction industry businesses, whether they're builders or what, I'm not a hundred percent sure have gone through the hoop in the last couple of years. And while that's negative news. harsh as this probably sounds like, and it's not the case for all of them, I'm sure, but a lot of those businesses I would think probably shouldn't have survived what we've been through in the last couple of years. So cleaning a house, I think is a positive thing because it, declutters the industry a bit, gets rid of some people that maybe weren't doing the right thing and provides more opportunity to the people that have managed to weather the storm.

John Carolan:

Yeah. I agree.

Jordan:

I always like to end these episodes on a, bit of a personal note. I know we talk about, you know, the industry and businesses a fair bit, but is there a weird or interesting fact about yourself that most people won't know?

John Carolan:

I think in terms of building, and my career, one of the funniest or sort of little things that happened in my career when I, when I entered the industry, when I was working with my brothers, and I was 20 years old, they were sort of six, seven years older than me and already settling into relationships. We, we actually got asked by a client that we built a house for in Sydney, got asked to build a factory for him in the Cape Verde Islands in West Africa.

Jordan:

Oh, okay.

John Carolan:

my brothers looked at me and said, well, if we're going to do this, you're, you're going. so I, I went over there with some tools and a couple of guys and a translator. and use local labor over there. And we send materials from Australia via, container a few months prior. And so I spent five or six months over there building a factory, in the Cape Verde Islands, which most people haven't heard of. It's off the coast of Senegal, group of islands there. I think that's probably a really quirky thing in my career that, I'll never forget. And I think at the age of 20, coming from a country like Australia, it just made me really appreciate, where I live and, where I come from and, how, how good we do have it in comparison to a lot of places around the world.

Jordan:

what did the factory do in the, in those islands?

John Carolan:

it basically was a manufacturing factory. and I think the client had, had a deal with, the government there. I mean, the, population there was, I think they had 80 percent I think, you know, it was basically a clothing manufacturing business, textiles manufacturing. And, from our perspective, we were just building it, but the factory would become employment for the, for the locals and, obviously probably would have benefited the, textiles manufacturer as well. you could be cynical about those sorts of things, but people having, you know, Factories in those parts of the world, but I think when you've got people who are really, struggling to build an economy and have any, growth of any type, I think these things can be pretty, good

Jordan:

Yeah. absolutely. Well, this has been a good chat. I really appreciate your time. Where can people reach out to you, learn more about scope just generally get in touch if they want to learn more.

John Carolan:

Yeah, look, you can look me up, on LinkedIn, John Carrolyn, and the company's scope constructions with a K, and our website is, scope. au. or scopeconstructions. com. au that scope. au is the easiest one to remember. yeah, we're in Sydney and, you can look, up all our contact details there. happy to look and help people through that early process of, even through the planning stage.

Jordan:

Awesome. No worries. And yeah, I will put the link to the website in the show notes too. I recommend, having a look at the website because it is different than what you see on most construction industry websites and it's, worth checking it out and having a look at a bit of a different approach. So, Thanks very much for your time. You have a good rest of your day.

John Carolan:

Thanks, Jordan. I really appreciate the chat.