Crushing It In Construction

#62 In The Red? Focus On Culture To Get Back In The Black. With Kelvin Andrijich

• Jordan Skinner

Share episode

Welcome back to the Crushing It In Construction Podcast.

It's time to strap in for a fresh run of new episodes - kicking off with none other than Kelvin Andrijich, Managing Director at Alltype Engineering.

Drawn to the industry fresh out of uni, Kelvin had an early stint with Alltype before building up his experience elsewhere and then making the return, tasked with getting the struggling company out of the red.

Where did he start? By putting a focus on improving the culture.

And this is something that he values as a key factor in the turnaround of the business: implementing core values, upholding them, fostering a happy and inspiring workplace, and retaining talent.

So let's dive in, and find out his tried and tested strategies for getting out of the red and into the black!

CONTACT DETAILS

Kelvin Andrijich
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelvin-andrijich-86290911
Website: https://www.alltypeengineering.com.au/

Jordan Skinner
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-skinner-685439178/
Website: https://moonshotmedia.com.au/

Is your company attractive to potential employees? Take the scorecard: https://moonshotmedia.com.au/scorecard

Hello everybody. And welcome back to the crushing it in construction podcast. A podcast that is dedicated to the construction industry, where I interview amazing guests that all share their experience, their wisdom, and their insights. That'll help you. The listener either grow within your career or grow within your business. So no matter where you are in this industry, there was a way something valuable to learn from our guests and their stories. Well, everybody we are back. I don't know what it is at the minute. think I must have stepped on a black cat because every interview that I seem to arrange at the minute, you know, a great guests are gracious enough to spend their time on me. And they're all very busy, but every now and again, they get meetings that prop up and, clients that call them out, which mean we have to push our recording sessions back a bit. And it just seems to be happening nonstop at the minute. but we have finally been able to get some, people on the podcast and we are back with some more episodes and, This week, I'm actually chatting to Kelvin and rich from. All type engineering, And all type engineering is an engineering and construction firm based out of WWI. And in this episode, we talk about, basically how Kelvin is a frustrated, engineer that wanted to be in formula one, but ended up in construction instead. and we talk about how he started at all type engineering. He left, he came back And when he did come back. the business was actually struggling and he actually had a turnaround. Javanese hands to get the business from being in the red and getting it back into the black. And in this episode, we talk about how he did that, the things that he focused on, and you're also going to learn why he felt culture was the key component in turning the business around and getting it back on track and turning it into the successful company that it is today. So without further ado, let's get into this week's episode with Kelvin Andridge.

Jordan:

Kelvin. Thanks for coming on the podcast, mate. Um, looking forward to having a bit of a chinwag with you.

Track 1:

me too mate. Thanks for inviting me.

Jordan:

your day going anyway? I.

Track 1:

yeah. Flat out back to back meetings, but, uh, found time this afternoon to catch up with yourself, which is great.

Jordan:

time for the important people. So I, I, I agree. everybody that's listening that doesn't know who you are or what it is that you do yet, could you just tell everybody in your own words who, Kelvin is and, and it is you do?

Track 1:

So my name's Kelvin Andrich. I am the managing director at all type engineering. we're a medium sized tier two construction company.

Jordan:

So whereabouts did you get your start in the construction company?

Track 1:

Oh, well that started as I came out of university. It was actually one of the jobs that looked of interest when I went and interviewed, and it was really around project management and building things and. Always an interest in building things as opposed to designing them on paper and I'd give it a go. And you haven't looked back since?

Jordan:

did you grow up surrounded by the construction industry? Did you have parents that worked in the construction industry, anything like that?

Track 1:

No, not at all. I actually, uh, born on a farm. I went to school. I wanted to be a doctor then. I wanted to be a pilot, but I. These took me outta that. it was electronics and wanted to get into a, electrical type engineering. One of my friends one of the university expo said, oh, I think you'd like mechanical. And I was just getting into cars and Formula one and car racing. It was quite interesting. So I had a look and then decided I'd a mechanical engineer. sort of went from there as I went through university that I did have more of an interest in actually physically building stuff and. I guess Motorsport really drew me towards it as well, and it's actually the outcomes of the engineering that, I found more

Jordan:

so what was it that made you lean towards, I suppose, the construction engineering side of things more so than pursuing the motorsports side of things, if that was an interest.

Track 1:

Well, yeah, that's, that's sort of what I say to people. I said I, whole plan was become a mechanical engineer. I. joined one of the, F one race teams. One day I'll do a practice lap in the car and yeah, they'd get me in as a driver, but look, that never happened. So I've got the next best thing. Uh, literally through university, things change. You get a little bit older, all interested in, in race around in cars when you're sort of a teenager and you get to 20 and, interests again. And, be honest, the automotive industry in Western Australia is very thin. but the resources construction industry is huge. So I think it was just bit of luck, somewhat. Take the first job that looked interesting, took it and loved it.

Jordan:

You said you came straight outta uni and then, started at all type. Did you do anything else before coming into the construction industry?

Track 1:

no. Just the stuff you do at university or, or through high school? Just the odd jobs. So whether it was doing a bit of Manual labor or working in a supermarket, bakery, delivering pizzas, all that sort of stuff. yeah, went to All Top. I started there in 1995, but I actually finished in the year 2000, go off and pursue sort of and broader career goals versus what they were doing at the time.

Jordan:

So where did you go you left?

Track 1:

went from there to a company at the time was called H P s. they're a company that's, me, very similar to what All type is today. they're emerging as, at the time a tier two sort of construction contractor a few different industries, but had a, bigger reach. Uh, were more national, they were more construction focused. in 2005, they actually got acquired by an international company that brought along a balance sheet and some and bigger opportunities again, which, Really is what I, I say, hitched my career to from there and just sort of wrote the, escalator up.

Jordan:

did you always have ambitions to eventually become like a managing director or run a business at some point. Was that kind of always part of the plan or?

Track 1:

I dunno that I was conscious of it when I was younger. I've sort of always aspired to and been interested in a leadership position and I. When I was involved in sport at university and some other clubs, I ended up in those sort of a role. I got into construction, I worked a few years. When I moved to the second job at h P s, that's when it was looking a bit more interesting to be sort of in more of a management position. And, a little while and I went to university, I did my M B A, which was to me quite key in of the success I managed to have in my career later on, giving me the tools I needed to do the job. yeah. Sort of landed in that role in 2011 and, it's never really looked back.

Jordan:

what was it that drew you back to all type after the excursion elsewhere?

Track 1:

that's a great question. Uh, so working with this company through to 2014, they changed their global strategy. They wanted to revert back to more of their, um, equipment packaging. Type model and service and maintenance. And the construction industry in, in Australia was becoming pretty, legalistic, contractual, a very different landscape. So they were withdrawing from that. I moved on I moved to another company for a couple of years while were sort of growing and the market was terrible at the time it didn't work out there, it wasn't sort of a fit for me. So I decided that I would actually, resign from there. So I left and while I was basically, not working, I got a phone call from the old owner. I'd always stayed in touch with him and was having some real challenges with the business. They were in some financial, um, difficulties'cause the market was down. They'd built for an expansion just at the time the market came down and, there was a lot of challenges for him. he asked me to come down and. Lend a hand. And I said, all right, I'll come down, develop a strategic plan and, some core values for the business. And then he said, well, why don't you become part of it and run it? And said, oh, all right. Why not

Jordan:

on that in a little bit. but just before we get into that story, like, can you give us a bit more of a background on all type? Like how did it start? How has it evolved?

Track 1:

All type engineering. it got established in 1985 by, guys with two Utes really. And they were doing maintenance works on the, power stations in Perth, Muja and Ana power stations. And after a few years, they then built a workshop. And started doing mostly fabrication with a little bit of installation services and then their maintenance services. funny enough, through the nineties they stopped doing maintenance, focused on more of the fabrication, but never really launched the installation or construction to the next level. going along that same trajectory through the boom of the two thousands, uh, was here in Western Australia. And towards the end of, the two thousands decided, well, we'll expand our. Fabrication capability and that's where they went to build 6,000 square meter facility we have now. But at the time they were building it, there was a real change in the market. A lot of procurement and fabrication and manufacturing was moving overseas. So it tended this sort of perfect storm where overseas supply was starting to dominate. The markets were starting to come off as far as activity and they had a, very large shop that was very underutilized.

Jordan:

so are I suppose the stages of growth that the company's been through to get to where it is today?

Track 1:

So I guess it was organic. So just steady, steady, and building up the revenue building up the same sort of structure to put out very similar levels of contracts. But with construction, once you get from a certain level, which I call the tier three into tier two, you have a significant jump in what you require as far as an overhead management structure. There's much more complexity in reporting controls, um, and, and contract management, um, procedures and, compliances, and that's the transition, that was the real pain barrier to get through. So, coming along sort of in 2017, part of the strategic plan was really to reinvent the company as a construction company with its own supply chain control. And that took a lot of change as far as culture, strategy, uh, of where the business had to go and the structure to support that.

Jordan:

struggle was breaking through into that tier two kind of bracket you said?

Track 1:

Yeah, so the tier two bracket is the bigger contracts, the, multimillion dollar contracts as opposed to the hundreds of thousands of dollars contracts. tier two, you start now having clients that are the end users and the operators you're not a secondary subcontractor.

Jordan:

as such.

Track 1:

Yeah,

Jordan:

And so what is it that you really needed to change get to that next level? I, I know you, you touched on it slightly just before, but you give us any more detail about, you know, really had to change within the business to be able to reach that next LE

Track 1:

there were a few areas, so one of them was to actually get, clients and customers to understand the business had this capability of doing construction as opposed to just workshop fabrication. So the big perception change, which comes to marketing and demonstrating capability, but within the organization, probably the biggest change there pursuing new works was to focus on projects that we could convert and win that lined up with the strategy. So if you had to pick between a construction job and a workshop job, historically you go for a workshop job. Here it was, no, we have to focus on the construction job. you had to change your revenue mix to align with what your strategic goal was. Second to that, it's the contractual and commercial awareness. So I started in this industry, hardly even read contracts, let alone sign them, and everything was done in good faith. And something changed. Yep. That, gonna cost more, take a bit more time. As long as it was fair and reasonable. Everybody shook hands, Absolutely. fast forward 20 years and you now have this situation where people who really want to build things and construct things or, and have done, say engineering, are almost having to act like miniature lawyers and read contracts, and suddenly there's things called time bars, which exclude you from claiming the cost for a legitimate variation because you didn't put a piece of paper in. That is a complete change of mindset where you have to now manage the contract. As opposed to building the project and that was the biggest change that we had to do, um, with varying, um, of success.

Jordan:

I've got a couple of questions. what do you think made the industry change? Like me it always felt like really to be litigious and go through contracts and all that sort of stuff. Do you, do you think it, just time we've caught up to what happens overseas and we were like lagging behind, or what do you think changed to make the industry as litigious as it is now?

Track 1:

again, a great question. One that, gone through with a lot of people off the record and even now I'm wondering how much I, I say, look, what it felt like to me was during the boom period, the cost escalation went through the roof the, quality of the labor also, it tended to drop out mainly'cause it was diluted. All the experienced guys were spread so thin. And then you had new people coming in trying to learn. And with that comes errors. comes inefficiencies, comes costs. And I think there was this feeling inside the industry that the contracts not being strong enough, were allowing all these suppliers and, and to just really charge whatever they like with no consequence. So I think a lot of owners felt aggrieved that they were being overcharged. Somebody came along from the side and said, look, if you put in stronger contracts, you can, make the contractor wear risk. You can make the contractor absorb this. There's, there's these things we can put in place. And then the power balance shifted the other way because suddenly there was no work. a lot of these contractors and subcontractors would sign these same contracts without reading them, and then suddenly we're just getting torched because they didn't administer'em. And it was a foreign concept. I think the change was brought around by that.

Jordan:

your point just then, I think a lot of contractors, like you said, they got caught out.'cause they were assuming that that business was gonna be done the way it was before, which was that handshake. And we do what we say we're gonna do out when these contracts came in. And um, mean, my personal opinion on it is like, I think you're a hundred percent right, but another portion of it is that, like you said, it was boom times, was lots of money being made. Um, That was the perception from people from outside the industry. So I think there was an influx of a of new people thinking that they were gonna make money while the sun shine. that maybe the integrity of the old school construction people that weren't willing to fulfill what they said they were gonna do. And I think too many people got and they were just like, well, this isn't happening twice. And then that's where the contract started coming into it just to cover people's behinds.

Track 1:

there's definitely elements of that. Some of our really, really good customers we work with. bring in certain things into their contracts and when you have a discussion or why is that in there? They've worked with a different contractor with a different attitude and they haven't had the stick when they needed it. and these are clients that generally don't even want to use the stick. There's some of them around. you're right. There's both sides of, of story. the flip side of that, even this morning, I was informed we missed out on a job. With a customer who we have conformed contract with but is not their standard contract. And apparently the reason they haven't come back to us is there's another subcontractor competitor who was happy to sign their standard contract. So it's obviously of attraction to them to have what they think is some risk mitigation. us, I say, well, good, luck to the other supplier and if they can do it, great, but boy, there's some dangers in not modifying that contract that's presented.

Jordan:

you know, I had, Ian Brennan on the, podcast a while ago. Uh, runs a podcast Construction Secrets or something like that. So

Track 1:

I know Ken. Yeah, he is a good guy.

Jordan:

he's quite knowledgeable on the subject and he's got examples of people that have, you one work without really reading through the, contract and have been burnt as a result. and as much as, I hate to admit it, when I was still working my old man's business, did that once or twice where you just make mistakes, but you make sure like hell, you don't do it twice.

Track 1:

That's right. Yes.

Jordan:

and I were having a conversation a of weeks ago, and you touched on it earlier, when you came back into all type that the, it was going through a bit of a rough patch, but, could you explain a little bit more about, you essentially had a turnaround job on your hands when you came back into the business. Um, you just explain a little bit more about those times and, it is you actually had to do?

Track 1:

Yeah. turnarounds are, are really, really tough. Uh, it's tough on, on the management team and leadership. It's tough on the people. we had to do, first of all, and, it's a process that that I fortunately run a couple of times. It was really first of all to dig into the team and see where they're at and do an analysis on the business and get their views of where the problems were. Not necessarily of what management thought they were. You have to get to the people that are in the weeds. You take all that data and then you run a, strategic planning session, and there you identify where your problems are, what you need to fix, but also where you need to go. Uh, a big believer in, in that process, you set sort of a five year plan, work backwards and break it into smaller goals, into more achievable timeframe, say six months where you can make a material difference but measure it. Whilst all the time, towards the same common goal. Part of that process as, putting that in when you're doing a turnaround also, is you need to look at your, culture and the culture of the people. And we basically defined the culture through core values with the business as part of this process. In fact, defining the culture, was a precursor to put in strategic planning.

Jordan:

was there real problems in the culture before this strategic plan came about?

Track 1:

I dunno if it was problems, but dunno if it was cohesive or, or well-defined. So people really, lacked sort of direction or what would be a consistent norm within the business about what was priority? You can come under pressures, a lot of things happen. Um, seen in other businesses, get let go. Training gets dropped, marketing gets stopped. it's where some of this cost cutting can go. There's a point you can go where there's no material benefit in cost cutting. you're actually doing way more harm than, than what you're saving. and it's very difficult when you're in, that slippery slope. But for me, the culture piece was to make sure everybody understood what was acceptable and and, wasn't and what everybody thought was acceptable and what wasn't. And then when you find the individuals that. Are aligned with that culture. They work very, very well and those that aren't generally leave. And you want tenure and you want alignment in your team, you really need people where their personal values align with your, your corporate culture and values.

Jordan:

and how do you reinforce that consistently? What is it that you do? lot of companies have their values plastered on the smoker REM door, or you know, they we have a good culture, but. Culture's hard to define as a bit like an airy fairy thing. you grasp. But how you do that?

Track 1:

we started with the people you're right. what we found at the time, there was a lot of aspirational culture. There were some core values at the business, which were the ones that were plastered on the wall, not, followed, not enforced. So we had to take them down, rip them up and say, righto. Now we have to start with what, what culture do we want? then enforce it. And, and by enforcing it, It really comes down to that. You have to everyone what the core values are. You have to show what good looks like, and then you have to live them. So that means, you if you expect somebody's gonna keep the workshop space tidy, for example. yet myself in, my office, I have just an absolute pty with papers everywhere and rubbish everywhere. Well, that's what it's like, Then how am I setting an example that's gonna uphold core values? So also means making decisions which are hard and mightn't be what optically the business wants to see. But they are the right ones, know, where there's the wrong behaviors, you get be a key individual who really is not aligned with the culture. gotta make sure whether or not that key individual can stay at the business or not, and they're the hard decisions which reinforce the culture and then make people understand I.

Jordan:

times we are in now where people are hard to come by and, can be difficult attract and retain talent, like making decisions to let go of somebody because they don't fit the culture be a tough decision, but it's one that still needs to be made though, right.

Track 1:

And it's, sometimes, it's not so much what I'd call fitting with the culture, but there are certain values you just can't breach. You know, like we, hold safety as, as a very important, core value. Now, previously safety was something that was done as part of the job, to be honest, because they had to. But push come to shove, people were expected to get the job done as opposed to doing it safely. We had to turn that on its head and then you'd have people that, because in the past it's, I just get a milk crate and I'll jump up and, and I do this. Suddenly you say, no, go get the proper stepladder or build a scaffold. They're not used to it. Now some people adapt to that really well and go, oh wow, no, I like this better. And, and then they really embrace the company. Some of the people go, no, that's rubbish. I'm not doing it. the people that you can't make an exception for. And, and they go. And it doesn't have to necessarily just be safety. It can be in way people conduct themselves. It can be in respect. Integrity's, another one saying you're gonna do something and then not doing it. not taking accountability. These are all part of the core values that if, if you allow people to drift away from them, how can you expect others to adhere to them?

Jordan:

And once you started this turnaround and, and the focus on culture, how long was it until you started seeing, I suppose, tangible results regards to culture and, and things starting to change?

Track 1:

Yeah, not as fast as I would've liked. It was frustrating. I, I think I've been involved in some of these processes before. It, it always takes longer than you think. It's sort of like steering a ship. you turn the rudder and you think, oh, I should be turning now, but notice the turn in some time. And, and that's the path we went down. And, um, I think for me, I started seeing stuff happen around six months. So in that first six months, there were people that left. There were people that got reinvigorated and are still at the business. and probably 12 months later, we went from a loss position into a breakeven position, which was an outstanding result because there'd been a number of years of, of losses. then the following year, when we went back into the black as far as the profitability of the business again, and that, that was really positive. We've been a number of years since we'd seen that. and along with that, you had to also get outta some of this cutting mode and start spending some money on some maintenance and some team building and put the coffee machines back in, that sort of thing.

Jordan:

how much do you feel that work that you did with culture contributed to that? back in the black so quickly.

Track 1:

truly believe it was the foundation. Without that, we couldn't have built the team that we did to achieve it. the, the way it is today, I truly believe this, like everybody needs to be remunerated, commensurate with their role, but whether or not it's right up there or here, somewhat comes secondary to going somewhere where you actually like to work. you like the people you work, where you feel, it's a safe space. It's an enjoyable place. Even at the time it was, it was a, a quiet market. Uh, weren't a lot of jobs around. The real test of it was when post covid, everything got busy. then there was jobs galore and we didn't lose lots of people. And in fact, I'm really proud to say we didn't let one person go during Covid. And again, we looked at our core values and said, either have a business or we don't, and it'll survive as it is, or it won't. Let's take that approach and go for it. And again, bringing everyone into the, the workshop when we're all flying a little bit blind and saying, this is what we're gonna do and have every single people go with a strategy. it, was really, really successful for us.

Jordan:

And so for somebody listening to this, I mean,'cause you obviously had experience in this area, to know that, okay, well I'm doing this work now, it's slow, it's frustrating. I'm not really seeing the fruits of my labor just yet, but just, let's stick with it. I've gotta stick with it. And you've seen it through and you got to the other side. But somebody that's maybe not used to doing a turnaround or not, used to, seeing results. or worried that they're not gonna see results fast. With something like culture, would you suggest are some good leading indicators that they're on the right track if they're trying to a culture, implement a culture, something like that?

Track 1:

I think, in parallel, so when you're in a turnaround as well, you, you gotta look at the, the realities of your business metrics. So what you have to be able to do is measure your, profit and loss and what's your cash flow. So at the end of the day, the cash flow's gonna trump everything. So with the cash flow, if that means you've got oxygen, you can look at your culture. Unfortunately, if you don't have a business that's viable just gonna have a whole lot of good people that unfortunately are gonna have to, you shut shop. That's right. but where you can see the, the positive results around it will be things like, commitment, getting things done, getting, you somebody, up workshop on a Saturday to get a job done for a customer that, that it. Or somebody lending the hand or somebody working back without having to ask'em. They just do it'cause they know that's what everybody needs to do to help out. They're little things like that you can pick up on.

Jordan:

Yeah. are there any other ways that you guys, I suppose, measure the success of the culture? Do you have metrics in place do anything like that? Or is it just something that's quite fluid?

Track 1:

are certainly indicators that reflect how well it, does or doesn't work. I mean, safety is one where there's a lot of measurements, lead and lag. To see how well somebody embraces a core value when it comes to other things like accountability, integrity, have client surveys and feedbacks. you get people recognizing others for doing it. not being afraid to, to shout out and say, Hey, well done for, for that and, and helping us through and, and being a team member. So we do try and have, core value moments at the beginning of of our meetings for people to identify that and see that that's a real positive. another indicator of culture that's working well for me is ability to attract good people and the ability to retain good people. just recently, uh, clicked over six years this time at all type engineering and few of my colleagues said, oh, um, on your work anniversary. And I'm going, well, that means you are three months from now. That's six months from now. I mean, these are people in these modern days that are at this company 4, 5, 6, 7 years. It's fantastic. And to me that retention of people is a big reflection of how good your culture is as a business. Likewise, if you've got high turnover or people not even wanting to be at a, at a business that says a lot about where the culture's really doing something wrong, I.

Jordan:

agree And you a lot of people that I chat to are saying and know it's all just all about money. It's all about money. And we're actually working with a couple of clients at the minute where we are doing interviews and building out, employer value proposition for'em. And the interviews are really interesting because they've got people that have, staying with this company that are there for 10, 15, years think they should be paid more, you everybody thinks they should be paid more, but this is proof that people stay with for more than just money. There's more to it. people think that it's all just down to money, it's, it's not, and, proof's in the puddin. A when you're doing this research, people are staying factors that mean more to'em than money.

Track 1:

Yeah. we've got people at all type that are 15, 20, 25 years. And they have stayed through this transition. And when I've spoken to them, it's not that it was bad before, but they said it just needed to change. one of the founders and, and owner, it was really tough for him because, uh, wearing the brunt of a lot of the cost of, this business going really badly. he himself didn't wanna let people go even during the downturn. outta that, he bore his frustration out on these people. was not having a good time because keeping these people, which doesn't wanna let them go yet at the same time'cause he's so angry, they're feeling that they're not valued and yet they have been as well. So,

Jordan:

an situation to

Track 1:

absolutely.

Jordan:

been great. always like to end these episodes on a bit of a personal note so audience can, you to know the guest outside of work. So, is there a weird or interesting fact about yourself that most people won't know?

Track 1:

Oh yeah, this is the one where I go, how, many people are gonna view this video?'cause I share, I'll share this in a, I'll share this in a forum. I've got one that I share in a forum around my music taste, where there's no permanent record of it.'cause it's a, it's a little bit strange, but maybe I'll leave that one off. Uh, Um, guess something that most people these days wouldn't know, I'd say the vast majority is at high school, I was a mad computer gamer. And it really finished there, so maybe that's, something that most people wouldn't know. Maybe one, I'm not too bothered about having

Jordan:

when you were, gaming, did you ever think that there would be a day and age where people get paid large sums of money to play video games as a profession? I.

Track 1:

Not at all. I mean, this is pre-internet. I'm talking Commodore 64 type stuff. So it was very different, especially the quality of the games. But, no, not to the point they have today where, yeah, there's people getting paid to do it on YouTube and, and, and play games for'em. Oh, look, it's fantastic. I. I guess at the time I was playing'em, I thought, wouldn't it be good if there was,

Jordan:

just it longer.

Track 1:

I, I've got no regrets on my career decision. Just like I'm not gonna go professional golfing in a hurry. Certainly like eating

Jordan:

has been great fun. I appreciate you taking the time to have a chat to me. Where can people reach out to you, learn more about all type and just generally get in touch if they wanna learn more?

Track 1:

well, as, per usual, we've, definitely got a website. if you Google all type engineering, Western Australia, you'll find us, and it'll take you to our website. There's a lot of our details and also on LinkedIn, type engineering there. myself, Kelvin Andrew is linked to all type engineering as well.

Jordan:

No worries. Well, thanks again, your time. I appreciate you taking the time to have a chat with me and um, have a good rest of your week.

Track 1:

Yeah, thanks Jordan. Great talking to you again mate.

Jordan:

Bye.

Track 1:

See you mate.